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Well, as a fiddler, poor one that I am, it seems to me that the joy and excitement that comes from good fiddling is the joy and excitement of the player. When I play something difficult, well, my personal energy and joy in fiddling blossoms. The opposite is also true, sigh. Play your mistakes loudly a second time, slur into and out of them. Own all of your fiddling and you may come to the point where that "joie de vivre" comes across with your playing. Play on!
Bit of differences in how folks are interpreting "energy in fiddle playing"?
To me, it's not really can measure it based on speed or frenetic; fast is not necessarily synonymous with energetic. Slow tunes (and songs) can have lot's of performance energy.
What comes to my mind in that post, is the idea powerful, and expressiveness, reflecting a passion or an intensity for tune/song or groove; from some spark that comes from within, putting whole self into it; that little something extra which then transcends technical, goes beyond just notes/syllables, timing, formulas, algorithms, rules; just going thru motions.
Mostly I think this starts as more something you feel, and learn to express... attained from experimenting and listening, more than a lot of analytical calculation thinking or prescription. Might as later description, as involves weight to notes; volume and tone; dynamics, drive, anticipating or front of the beat, an edge to the attack, bite, snap to notes; push and pull, forward momentum to it. These can relate to physical RH bow weight/speed; and micro-timing. Not sure how useful to delve into more explicit analytic technical terms.
Besides focus on feel/expression; alot of it might involves attitude; and perhaps psychological obstacles; such as comfort zone, risk taking, safe, self-conscious, confidence, stoicism, reservation, timidness, over-control, exposure/vulnerability.
It's not just fiddle, and perhaps more relatable is in lead singers, more than just notes/words; or even an analogy to good public speaking (not just spewing the words, but the delivery). Have something to say... and say like mean it.
As far as how to develop that energy? There are various exercises to probably help the latter, which I might post later; first though is just an being open to experimenting and exploring (and initial failing).
I'm not sure what is meant by energy, myself...I mean...I know when I used to take my daughter and her friends to the roller rink...Michael Jackson records gave us all unending skating energy for about 3 hours straight (even though otherwise I can't stand his stuff...lol)...so...I guess dancers (out of my league, anything to do with dancing) get energy from music something like that. I don't know. I guess a lot of the BG I was involved with always felt more like hectic, even quasi-careless, testosterone-like racing to the fire, a purely athletic event moreso than a dancing sound...it wasn't enjoyable for me personally. I always wanted things a lot slower, not really for a feeling of dance energy, but for a feeling of getting into a pleasant relatable groove that you could do all day long and feel the, the musical grip of it, so to speak.
But I guess if you want speed as energy...you practice slightly faster than comfortable, more and more, until your fast playing doesn't sound forced or rushed...but sounds relaxed. If you wanna play for dancers...that's gonna have to get you through the tunes without rushing or slowing down, I guess. I don't know. Don't even know why I'm chiming in with my 2 cents here...lol. I usually go for contemplative music, even if it's a fiddle tune...I like 'em to fit a slow, purposeful, directional groove like a glove...a comfort zone that you never wanna leave...that's maybe the kind of "energy" I aspire to, something like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics...equilibrium of the groove plus melody/harmony...but I guess everybody has their own idea of what musical energy might be fore them. It's an interesting question and enlightening responses.
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/28/2024 14:13:02
Learn how to drive the thing, and know what you are doing to create drive. Then make it better.
Sit on it until you need/want to create drive.
it could be a rhythm thing , or it could be a tonal thing. just know what you are doing and why you are doing it.
Edit: As in all things, context is the predominant factor
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/28/2024 15:13:16
quote:
Originally posted by pmiller510Thanks for all the comments so far.
Do any of you know fiddler’s that have started playing and somehow or other got to the point where they demonstrated that energy? If so what are the elements of their story that caused it to happen? How did Bruce Molsky, Kirk Sutphin, Kevin Fore, Alan Jabbour, Charlie Walden, Geoff Seitz, Brad Leftwich, Rhys Jones, Eryn Marshall, Tatiana Hargreaves,(and this list does not, by any means, cover them all.) Get the energy in their fiddling.
Were these fiddlers naturally gifted or is their an element in their growth as a fiddler (besides dedication and hard work) that helped them break through beyond being ‘technically’ good.
The fiddlers that you mention here have been playing for quite a while. Their early years were not much different from most of us in the old time fiddle community - except Alan Jabbour who was classically trained and Eryn Marshall who started out playing Scottish fiddle in British Columbia. The common element in each of the fiddlers you list is that they each had mentors and a strong community that nurtured their fiddling. Commensurate with this is the numerous uncounted hours they have in playing in jam sessions, attending fiddle music festivals, and just being around the music they enjoy.
They likely developed their fiddling energy through osmosis. It's in their bones. Becaue I have been playing 50+ years, it's in my bones. Can it be taught? Yes, but now you are talking about technique and for informal fiddlers, it is not an trivial task. For me, getting the energy in my playing is intuitive. I can never teach it because I can't analyze specifically how I achieve it. It's like grabbing a handful of sand. The moment you think you have a grip on it, you lose it.
My advice is to get with others whenever and wherever you can. Play. And play some more. After about 5 years, or more, you will get it. (Remember the 10,000 hour rule - the number of hours needed to master a skill.) But, many of us have more than 10,000 hours invested and we are still learning!
Playing with energy is rhythm based. Playing sloppy and loud can sometimes get you by, like Charlie Daniels, but Kershaw, etc., are not good models, unless you want to be a showboat fiddler, but as for me, I seek the dance.
Seitz is a drummer, you can hear it in his playing, he rocks the tunes, not in a negative way, but he powers it with good tone, bow control, and rhythm. I spent a lot of time watching fiddlers like Geoff Seitz, Buddy MacMaster, Kevin Burke, James Kelly, Martin Hayes, as well as the usual fiddlers who would come to the play the dances, watching their bowing, trying to see how it was that their bow seemed to always be going downwards!? BTW, the fiddles I use were made by Seitz.
Every player has their own method of imparting energy to tunes, some of which may come from playing in different styles. The Steve Hickman video above makes a good point about getting a great fiddle—without one, it is hard to power through tunes when power is called for, and it it hard to get the tone when I am making the tune soar, and having it respond. When I bear down, I need the fiddle to respond, the tone to be good, and the fiddle to be responsive.
Not playing a note might make a tune more energetic, it is not just about speed, it is about variation.
Ok, I think I’m stepping back from this topic. I’ve had enough feedback to continue with my idea of how to get energy into playing but will need 6 months to a year to see if it works. Change with me is a slow process.
It seems to me in this discussion that people can’t help themselves from veering into the technical aspects. While the technical is certainly important, it doesn’t get to what I think is missing. Interesting to see that it’s hard to define what energy is in music and possible that is something that each of us would consider in a different way. I would agree , by the way, that energy does not equate with speed.
As mentioned by Kirk Hunter in his comments about some of the fiddlers listed above, I think the element of mentoring is a big one. Mentoring is not thought of by most of us because the number of people available to mentor are beyond our reach other than for short periods at workshops or festivals. Then the question is; how do those of us, who don’t have a mentor, get access to that experience? Just playing a long time, practicing, studying, going to jam sessions, and attending workshops and festivals doesn’t cut it for me. Most fiddle players I know do all of that and it hasn’t given them the element of energy I want to reach. Perhaps it is as Kirk Hunter says, “It’s in their bones,” but that falls into the “they just have the talent for it,” which means most of us might as well not try and just be satisfied with being average.
Will see if I get anywhere and revisit this later.
Thanks for all the comments.
"In their bones" is has nothing to do with talent. I has to do with totally internalizing the style and the music. It will come over time and with hours of playing - and with people who are better than you.
Mentors can be everywhere! Find a music group/organization close to you and attend their gatherings. I found one of my mentors at a folk song society gathering! I met another of my mentors at a dulcimer society meeting. So, be open to new experiences that may not be fiddle centric. You likely have more mentors close by than what you think. My dearest mentor grew out of a brief festival encounter when I was just starting back in the late 70s. Our relationship. including with his wife, grew into a long, wonderful friendship until their deaths in the 90s.
When you encounter a fiddler that you respect, ask questions. "How do you do _____?" or "Could you show me _______?" Most of the experienced fiddlers will freely help you or load you up with lots of suggestions!
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddler
When you encounter a fiddler that you respect, ask questions. "How do you do _____?" or "Could you show me _______?" Most of the experienced fiddlers will freely help you or load you up with lots of suggestions!
Yes indeed! You need to be brave, step up and ask questions. Our culture here is to not volunteer things. Because at our jams we're all there to play. When I first started, I heard one fellar tell another,"if I want lessons I'll go pay for them."
Here on FHO, i see some folks don't check the bio. page of the question asker. This leads to unwelcome advice. OTOH, you can be experienced in one aspect and not another.
Best of Luck in all endeavors . FJ
There can be different types of energies. Tommy Peoples, the legendary Irish fiddler said these things can be "summoned". Classical musicians talk about it all the time in workshops. Old fiddlers I knew seldom talked about technique, but energy/spirit/excitement. Energy doesn't always mean upbeat/fast.
One exercise I have used and suggested is to think about the energy you want. Start focusing on it. Maybe it's a dance energy. Maybe a melancholy mood. Maybe lightheartedness like a bird song. Get it in the mind until you feel it in the body. Embrace it. Don't push it out. Don't fear it.
Don't turn off the brain, but turn off technique and assumptions about the music and the instrument. (There's a lot of noise around the fiddle and technique online . in workshops, and otherwise that has nothing to do with music.) Empty that trash.
Pick up the fiddle and focus on the energy...maybe not even a particular tune... but the feeling. (This is where I usually lose students). Maybe just hold the fiddle and get used to the fiddle being part of the moment. Even if it feels like losing control, don't be afraid of it, and let it out on the fiddle. Even if it's sloppy, harsh, or random. Let the body go its own way. Let the music teach the body. Let the fiddle and the physical body become meshed. Go for a minute or two or three. I have gone three plus hours and it seemed like 1. Also do this in a private space where its comfortable to "let go".
This can be uncomfortable, but therapeutic. It can result in teaching the body new things and new ways. It can also reveal limitations or strengths a player doesn't know they have physically and mentally. You'll remember these things. They can be recalled, worked on. Refined. Summoning them at will takes time and preparation.
Edited by - Shawn Craver Fiddler on 08/31/2024 07:08:36
I don’t think it’s that complicated or beyond anyone’s reach. I think “energy” is mostly imparted by rhythm. As mentioned it could be fast tempo or swingy. Even a slow waltz can have it. Keep practicing your bowings and string crossings preferably with a metronome. The more rhythmic control you develop the more you will be able to communicate what you feel. There’s no mystery.
Ask violinist Itzhak Perlman or fiddler Wilson Douglas... They say the same things... both encourage/d emotion/energy/fire with their music rather than simply focusing on technical execution. They believe/d embracing the emotion or context of a piece enhances performance. It can be experienced/summoned/executed at different levels... it's not a neat mathematical equation.
Maybe more like a dance. But you can't be afraid to dance. That doesn't mean some deep dark esoteric trance... it could be joy, fun, frivolity, melancholy, longing, rest, celebration... none of that rules out technique as a potential source for "energy", but it ain't the only source. Could be a shot of whiskey. Could be excited about going the hoedown after a long work week. Could be dealing with the loss of a love done.
Back to the technical side, I think there are other technical aspects of "energy" that don't get talked about on this site very much as well. For example playing in an ensemble vs playing alone can be very different. The perfect solo in a bluegrass band might not sound so great or energetic isolated from the accompaniment. And I've heard great old time fiddlers who have good energy solo but that energy gets lost in a bluegrass style backing band.
Also tune style requires a different energy. One of my favorite fiddlers is really bad at playing solo slow pieces... so they stick to upbeat tunes where they shine on stage. Part of figuring out "energy" is preparing for the situation... hot bluegrass energy is different than hot contra dance fiddling or irish session energy etc.
A Vast simplification but...if i take those very pertinent points one at a time and analyze them...
1: "playing in an ensemble vs playing alone can be very different".
Playing solo: you can outline your own rhythms and harmonies.
you can play at your own tempo
you can play Legato
you can morph mistakes into improvisations
None of these are possible unless you are playing with an extremely attentive and well rehearsed band.
2: "The perfect solo in a bluegrass band might not sound so great or energetic isolated from the accompaniment."
i think that this maybe because a typical bluegrass solo tumbles over the bar lines in triple time against a duple time rhythm section, until the player decides to bring it back into duple time with one or more leading notes?
3: "I've heard great old time fiddlers who have good energy solo but that energy gets lost in a bluegrass style backing band"
I think this may be due to the O/T fiddler having a different sense of rhythm and harmony to the backing band IE: the O/T fiddler is not thinking in poly rhythms and more modern b5 or augmented 5ths and 7th chords, but maybe in pentatonic harmonies and more simple dance rhythms to keep a crowd in time, rather than wowing them with technique?
Irish session energy to me, typically relies on playing against a drone, whereas Contra is similar but uses major/minor triads and 1-5 bass lines in the accompaniment rather than modal harmonies and/or interchange.
Of course there are grey areas in between and crossovers with blues etc but these are my first reactions to your post. And i think that all of them create tension and energy.
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggyI usually go for contemplative music, even if it's a fiddle tune...I like 'em to fit a slow, purposeful, directional groove like a glove...a comfort zone that you never wanna leave...that's maybe the kind of "energy" I aspire to, something like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics...equilibrium of the groove plus melody/harmony...
Yes.
I have often found myself sitting with my fiddle or mandolin in the quiet evenings, playing favorite tunes slowly and apparently aimlessly. Often the tune will roll on for several minutes, gaining energy as it goes. The energy doesn't show up as playing faster, but as evolving patterns, nuances and interpretations. New things seem to come out of that fiddle, and it's interesting to listen and wonder what's gonna come out next. The fiddle seems to direct itself with minimal guidance from me. And the momentum is somewhat addictive -- sometimes I don't want that tune to stop.
Interestingly enough, if I think too much about what I'm doing -- or "try" too hard to do something -- the easy fluency and its energy disappear for a moment. When I let go and give the tune back to the fiddle, the energy comes right back. Like they say, ya can't think and play at the same time...
This is not the energy that makes the audience jump & shout, but it's definitely energy. I can feel it.
I was commenting more about the techniques used in various styles (not bad musicianship or failures of the backing band).
A bluegrass break is designed to interact with the band. For example... Sliding round on double stops can sound energetic and exciting against a bass line and punchy guitar... take that band away and it can just sound weird. So the techniques a bluegrass fiddler uses to bring energy or life to the music are very different than old time or irish. i also think bluegrass fiddlers use more in your face shuffles more than old time fiddlers to build excitement and energy. subtle things old time fiddlers do with drones and variations can get lost in a bluegrass a band.
Edited by - Shawn Craver Fiddler on 09/10/2024 13:43:57
Let the band and vocalist(s) handle the tune's bedrock melody. I'm not sure how to put this, but when do your solo, instead of simply restating the melody, try to make it so that your solo plays off of it. Try to have your solo comment upon the tune...whether that comment be heartfelt & supportive or playful, razzy & cheeky. You can also restate one of the tunes key phrases, restating it 'till the cows come home.
Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 09/10/2024 15:44:32
Have been focusing on hearing and playing diatonic (and experimenting with chromatic),major and minor 2nds/9ths! Edit: (above or below a melody note)...If i can't hear them i can't play them, but i'm starting to hear them, and am learning where to use them. They definitely add energy, tension and a forward motion when used in the right place and context.
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 09/11/2024 15:19:08
If a tune is feeling stale and it’s not due to technical problems or a dragging tempo, sometimes a lot can be gained by playing it in a different style (e.g. adding a Scottish flair or some syncopation to sound like ragtime). Taking an approach that departs from your typical interpretation will engage your mind as you’re coming up with ideas on the fly and it may lead you to analyze the tune more to get a better sense of its internal mechanics. It can be an interesting experiment to seek out the point at which your modifications turn the tune into something distinctly different, not just a variation on a theme.
Another approach is to narrow the focus of tone production. Instead of thinking about making it through the whole tune or each part, focus on each phrase. Then begin working on the parts of each phrase and how they connect. Then analyze each note to see how it can best be expressed.
I just focus and practice a tune until get it down so well that I am getting board with it, then start to improvise to make it more interesting; the energy then follows that. Think about how a vocalist might sing a song, then think about a GREAT vocalist would take and make it their own. You can play around listening to different vocalist singing the same song. It's the same way with fiddling, you wok hard on it and make it your own. The next tune will be easier to capture.
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