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I stumbled upon this beautiful old time tune "Banks of the Arkansas" in GDGD cross tuning, there are some really great performances on youtube.
My problem is, I can't learn it if I can't count it. It seems to have a very crooked time signature. I can play the notes after spending two hours learning it by ear and still I don't know, what I'm doing. Maybe some of you can help me cracking the code, so that I can not only play it but also FEEL it right.
It’s a very nice tune, and worth the time to learn, however long that takes. Live with it. I spent weeks maybe months figuring out the third part to Garfield’s BlackBerry Blossom which I’m proud of. Pace yourself, listen to it regularly. Use software to slow it down and make sure you’re hearing each note but also here’s a little trick - Listen to it speeded up also. Sometimes the structure of a crooked tune is hard to grasp when it’s slow. It may be easier to count it out and see it clearly when it’s compressed. Do I remember Bruce Green playing this?
There's usually a cadence to the tune that usually helps to make sense of the melody - regardless of time signatures. Listening is certainly the key for me I'll start humming along and beating out the rhythm with my fingers / hands. I've heard it described like this when you "catch it" - "it stops sounding like it's crooked".
A lot of songs from "days gone by" were written and performed with "subservient" reference to the lyrics, and not to a regular time signature. Jimmy Rodgers was known as the "Father of Country Music" - also the "Singing Brakeman" and "America's Blue Yodeler". His songwriting was:
"...often characterized by a focus on the emotional impact of his lyrics and the natural flow of his singing. While he didn’t adhere strictly to traditional musical meter or timing,"
On guitar, I've been working on "Mississippi River Blues" by Jimmie Rodgers. You don't really pay much attention to time signature when the meter is regular - but when you try to learn to play and sing the song the way it is recorded - you figure out pretty quick - this isn't really that straight forward as you thought. Great song! I'm learning from a version recorded by the Nashville Bluegrass Band (one of my favorites)
Not uncommon for songs to be played that way back then. A little more uncommon for "tunes" to be written that way - because most of them were done for dancers. "Keep it square."
I'm not a "crooked tune" geek - but I sure like the ones I play. Hopefully, the folks you play with - like them too.
It does appear that there are lyrics associated with "Banks of the Arkansas" - perhaps that will help. But - if it's the same tune - is sounds like they may have "squared" it up.
good luck ...and thanks for your indulgence. apologies if I veered off track too far.
It might help to make sense of phrases by listening to various versions of the tune "Indian Squaw".
These are typically in GDAD
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/01/2024 23:36:24
Do you read music? There are two transcriptions of this tune at the Traditional Tune Archive: tunearch.org/wiki/Banks_of_the_Arkansas
One is regular, one has a measure of 5/4 - both seem to be from the playing of Bruce Greene.
This tune is confusing - it seems to have been played with different titles and in different tunings. It remnds me of both "Cotton Eyed Joe" and "Corn Stalk Fiddle and a Shoestring Bow," and in fact its on page 68 of John and Alan Lomax' book "Our Singing Country" as a song, and the chorus includes both those lines.
quote:
Originally posted by PegheadIt’s a very nice tune, and worth the time to learn, however long that takes. Live with it. I spent weeks maybe months figuring out the third part to Garfield’s BlackBerry Blossom which I’m proud of. Pace yourself, listen to it regularly. Use software to slow it down and make sure you’re hearing each note but also here’s a little trick - Listen to it speeded up also. Sometimes the structure of a crooked tune is hard to grasp when it’s slow. It may be easier to count it out and see it clearly when it’s compressed. Do I remember Bruce Green playing this?
Bruce Greene recorded it on Five Miles of Ellum Wood.
I've read where Bruce learned it from HIram Stamper. He was supposed to have included the "couplet" that goes:
Way down yonder on the Arkansas
Two old Indians and one old squaw
Sittin' on the banks of the Arkansas
Doug may know if any of that is true.
Edited by - tonyelder on 08/02/2024 12:10:26
Tony, I'd never heard of this tune before this thread, so I have no first hand experience. If you follow the link I posted to the TTA and click the tune name above the data chart, it will take you to the tune history, which tells the same stories you did.
I'm not sure if Bruce learned this tune directly from Hiram Stamper. If you follow alaskafiddler's link you'll find several recordings of this tune, including two of Hiram, made by Bob Butler in 1986. Bob took me to visit Hiram about that time and I recorded the visit. Unfortunately Hiram was well past his prime, both in terms of technique and also his ability to remember tunes. He'd play "Brushy Fork of John's Creek," one of his favorites, and then we'd ask "What do you want to play next," and he'd say "How about that 'Brushy Fork of John's Creek?" I was happy to meet him, but it was kind of sad.