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nico - Posted - 02/15/2009: 13:50:25
Hello Fiddlers,
I've seen this controversial subject has been discusessed before, but the old threads didn't answer my questions. So what do you think of this product http://www.frettedfiddle.com/ ?
For now I don't particularly suffer of intonation ant pitch problem, but I'm wondering if this could help me focus my learning on bowing rather than on left hand fingering.
One thing I fear, is that it could make me develop more a visual memory of the fingerboard rather than a muscle memory... It's very tempting. The black version of the product may limit this tendency.
Oh and of course I know this may be considered by some as heresy !
Nico - Mandolin Player but Fiddler Wannabe
http://palomino.bluegrass.free.fr/
M-D - Posted - 02/15/2009: 14:55:27
If you're concerned about developing a visual memory of the board, dont look at the board! There's really not much reason to ever look at the board whilst playing.
I know one person on this forum uses the FF. Perhaps he will opine.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Harry - Posted - 02/15/2009: 15:29:40
Hi Nico,
I started fiddling again in november 2008 and bought the set just in case intonation problems would be a reason to quit. So far I just used them to put tape at the fingerboard in the right place. The price includes shipping and at the current $ - € rate it's a bargain.
But I think M-D is right: why look at the fingerboard (Doc Watson never does).
I'll remove the tape 
superdave2112 - Posted - 02/15/2009: 16:41:33
Hey Nico,
Although I don't agree with the idea for learning, as it lessens your ear training (in my opinion) I bought a set to fool around with a year or two ago. They are alright, although to really have the intonation right the bridge has to have a slight angle. It's only really noticeable in 3rd and 4th positions, and up. Anyway, mine quickly started peeling between the two layers. A little glue fixed it up.
If anybody wants the "stealth" one that I still have, you can have it... if I can find it!
Always most sincerely yours,
David Loudenback
carroll - Posted - 02/15/2009: 20:31:43
Save your money for something that sounds good like new strings!
Seriously, use your ears, close your eyes.
- Carroll
superdave2112 - Posted - 02/15/2009: 21:14:21
What Carroll said!
Always most sincerely yours,
David Loudenback
Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/16/2009: 12:33:16
They are inexpensive and work very well. I used one of these to help improve the accuracy of some of my noting on the E string. Very easy to install and remove.
I think that they would be great for a new player. Lot better than white tape.
gulfguy
nallycat - Posted - 02/16/2009: 13:02:04
I agree totally with Dick. Hauser. and I wil add it's great. know some fiddlers who's ears don't match reality.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
Eric Sprado - Posted - 02/16/2009: 14:43:58
Main problem that nobody mentioned is that you CANNOT have straight lines across a fingerboard and have all notes be in tune.The space difference between say B and C in first position on G string is not the same as the space difference between G# and A on the A string. That is basic problem of fretted instruments. Charts with straight lines across the fiddle teach you how to play out of tune. No?
Edited by - Eric Sprado on 02/16/2009 16:01:21
fiddledan - Posted - 02/16/2009: 15:44:56
quote:
Originally posted by nico
Hello Fiddlers,
... but the old threads didn't answer my questions. So what do you think of this product http://www.frettedfiddle.com/ ?...
Nico - Mandolin Player but Fiddler Wannabe
http://palomino.bluegrass.free.fr/
Okay, to answer the "question", Not much.
You say you don't have any intonation problems. You will if you use this. No guarantee that your strings are "in tune" unless you can hear it. If you can hear that, you don't need the tool. If you can't, well, you will have ostensibly have perfect positioning (note post above about real positioning and straight lines) on out of tune strings which will give you out of tune notes.
Answer your question clearly enough?
Play nice!
Dan Levenson
Now Available "Old Time Festival Tunes for Fiddle and Mandolin"
www.OldTimeMusic.usOn the road and fiddlin'' around!
M-D - Posted - 02/16/2009: 16:12:33
Sounds like a market for either a compensated nut, or a compensated bridge, along with the return of just temperment for fiddles.
Apparently not Nico's problem, but what about those whose hands no longer function as they once did? Hearing is one thing, not being able to get the fingers there is another.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
dr.crow - Posted - 02/16/2009: 17:33:54
Re Eric's point, just yesterday I put two pieces of tape on the "A line" and "B line", speaking of the top (smallest and highest pitch) string. I marked each string where the third and fourth fingers would go and used a tuner to make sure I marked the right spot - definitely NOT straight across. It was no problem putting the tape on even though it was not straight across, but I was wondering why it isn't straight across?
shadygrove - Posted - 02/16/2009: 19:25:16
I believe the reason you can't draw a line straight across and be in tune is because of the change of diameter of the strings... this is also why if you look at most guitars the saddle sits at an angle so the speaking length of the string increases as you go from a smaller diameter string to larger. A fiddle bridge doesn't sit at an angle, therefore your fingers have to make the adjustment.
When I was learning bass I put a few pencil marks on the side of the fingerboard to get me close, but soon learned to use the open strings for reference which is the approach I used with the fiddle... lots of playing scales, arpeggios, and checking intonation any time I have a note that is an octave from an open string or in the case of g on the e string two octaves. I found with both instruments I have plenty to pay attention to without adding staring at the fingerboard.
Jeff
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/16/2009: 21:51:05
Gee, what happened to just using strips of masking tape as frets? I bought a wire fretted Celtic fiddle off of e-bay 2 yrs. ago. It belonged to a mandolin player that put the wire frets on. I paid a hefty price for this fiddle. It is frustrating to play because you can't do slides....fret wires hurt!
Terry
nallycat - Posted - 02/17/2009: 04:33:52
Terry the fiddle fretter wires are very small and covered with clear plastic you just slide over them. It is really does not make your fiddle fretted as the wires are way to small. it makes a tactile version of tape across the finger board so you can feel your position and not have to keep looking, this way you can watch your bowing and if you use it your notation or tab.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
Eric Sprado - Posted - 02/17/2009: 13:17:21
You can't put a line straight across because of the change in wavelength of the vibrations. There is a PHYSICAL difference in the distance between notes on the G string and the E string. There is a physical difference in the distance between ALL NOTES. Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune.......
RoBanJo - Posted - 02/17/2009: 13:57:39
Hey Eric, What was that about straight lines?
bj - Posted - 02/17/2009: 17:40:26
quote:
Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune.......
Ya know, this explains something. I've always noticed that, after getting in the "zone" and just playing, without being totally cognizant of every dang movement, that after awhile if I'm in proper intonation on the E string, then when I drop down to the D I'm very slightly off. And vice versa. Somehow I think knowing why and getting the difference drilled into the gray matter might help. Thanks!
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/17/2009: 21:49:06
quote:
Originally posted by nallycat
Terry the fiddle fretter wires are very small and covered with clear plastic you just slide over them. It is really does not make your fiddle fretted as the wires are way to small. it makes a tactile version of tape across the finger board so you can feel your position and not have to keep looking, this way you can watch your bowing and if you use it your notation or tab.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
Nally Cat, guess I don't know what the Fiddle fretter is. The wires on my fiddle are mando wire frets that somebody put on. I would like to take them off, but don't know ....pry them off?? I don't want to damage the beautiful abalone celtic tree of life pattern on the ebony fingerboard.
Terry
oldtimer - Posted - 02/17/2009: 21:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by bj
quote:
Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune. Straight lines cannot be in tune.......
Ya know, this explains something. I've always noticed that, after getting in the "zone" and just playing, without being totally cognizant of every dang movement, that after awhile if I'm in proper intonation on the E string, then when I drop down to the D I'm very slightly off. And vice versa. Somehow I think knowing why and getting the difference drilled into the gray matter might help. Thanks!
Here you go, BJ:
leather Britches - Posted - 02/18/2009: 06:34:51
The last few weeks I have been focusing more on intonations, and noticed that when I play my A string I have to position my fingers further towards the bridges.
The string is in tune and I was getting frustrated with this. I think it still need to be looked at, but maybe it is not as bad as I through.
John
My cat stopped yelling that must be a good sign right ?
Crank Cuffin - Posted - 02/18/2009: 12:49:17
I have "fiddle fretters" on my fiddle, and as a beginner I find them indespensible.
When learning a new tune they are a fantastic "visual" aid.
Once I have started getting the tune in my memory I find myself looking less and less and ironing out the intonation by ear.
The "fiddle fretters" are only really a visual aid and do not interfere with intonation or slides etc.
coelhoe - Posted - 02/18/2009: 13:56:29
Hey, Glen: Those slanted lines look very much like the angle of the bridge on an acoustic guitar. Fancy that.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
Percy - Posted - 02/19/2009: 07:44:05
One thing came to me this morning as I was practicing my intonation...
According to what I've been taught by Hardy and a few other good players, an important thing to work on when trying to develop your intonation is to move your left elbow as you change strings -- so your muscle memory only involves learning the proper positions on a single string. Then when you change strings, the "geometry" is corrected by the elbow movement. Your fingers always land on the same relative position. The actual finger placement on each string is adjusted by your elbow.
So if you are going to use the Fiddle Fretter, there might be a tendency to rely on it and forget the elbow. If you do this, your fingers are going to have to learn the positions for each note -- on each string. That's a lot of muscle memory. If you let your elbow help, you just have to memorize the note positions on a single string.
I think the Fretter may be a good tool, but if you ignore the elbow, you might actually find you have to work harder to get your fingers to remember positions on each string.
DISCLAIMER -- these are just some thoughts from a rank amateur and are not to be taken as gospel truths.
nallycat - Posted - 02/20/2009: 14:29:27
If you have nice long fingers you move your elbow very little if you have short and or fat fingers you will have to move you elbow just to reach the low strings whether you use a fiddle fretter or not, I had violin lessons without the help of a fretter, I use a fretter now only on my electric and I use it to keep my intonation and memory muscle only when I learn a new tune, the electric fiddle is not loud so no one around me has to suffer. So I agree with Crank Cuffin fretters can be indespensible and everything else he says.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
Percy - Posted - 02/20/2009: 15:20:31
All I know is what Hardy told me -- that the elbow moves not because I'm trying to reach things --- but because it corrects the geometry -- and so you only have to develop muscle memory for one string. Then when you shift your elbow (slightly) between each string the elbow shift corrects for the fact that things aren't in a straight line.
When I forget to use my elbow, my intonation is fine on the D string, but it's out on the other 3 strings. When I remember to use my elbow, it's pretty darned good on all of them.
Maybe Hardy can jump in here -- and help me explain better.
transplant - Posted - 02/20/2009: 17:29:49
I've known of the advice to pull the elbow to the right for a long time. Still, it wasn't until last year or so that I actually felt the AHA! of having it get my fingers better in tune, especially the pinky and ring finger. I think it works by letting me get my base knuckles more parallel to the neck, so notes aren't such a reach with those fingers. Easier to stay centered in the note when the hand isn't straining to reach it.
For a while my intonation went all whoppy-jangle while I was paying attention to that elbow, but now it knows what to do all by itself, or only needs a few gentle reminders early in the day's practice.
With these reasonably long-fingered mitts of mine, I find it matters more on the longer strings of the viola, but I bet it makes a difference to smaller-handed violin players as well.
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kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
